The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

The new seed bank idea, which will allow posters to send negative “seeds” to one another, will harm the vibe of zaadz in a big way.

1) It will enable people to give anonymous “fuck you”s whenever they please.

2) People will never be able to defend themselves against bad seeds-there would be no record of what had happened, just the bad seed.

3) It will increase mistrust in Zaadz rather than trust.

4) It will be wonderful for the politically correct police but not those who are trying to push into new territory.

5) It doesn't take into account the shadow aspect of of human consciousness.

Imagine if school kids were allowed to send anonymous bad seeds to other kids, or imagine if your fellow citizens were able to do the same. People have a shadow, and some people don't have that much self-control, and bad seeds would be sent if they simply disagreed with people, had a bad day, didn't like someone for arbitrary reasons, were jealous of someone etc. With regard to the shadow, people can have intense dislike for certain people because they see a part of themselves that they don't like in that other person. So we would literally have people sending bad seeds to eachother not for things someone did wrong but for things they didn't like about themselves.

To the Zaadz team: Please search for another way to deal with the problem of abusive posters, one that will not harm the great positivity that Zaadz had before this system came into place.

~ David

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

The Seed Bank Idea brings to mind what happened in Germany during Hitler where neighbors turned in neighbors anonymously and then people just disappeaerd.  The same thing occurred in East Germany as well as in Communist CHina and the Soviet Union.  It is even occuring now in the USA under the beware of terrorist.

Why repeat that here?  As someone else said , there is no system to trust.  It is either there or it isn't.  And this so called system will undermine the trust that is there now.

To summarily lock our previously discussions of this on the pod we were requested to comment on without transferring the threads over here does not engender our trust of admin.

Jeremiah

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

David: Although I've not always agreed with you (on th I-I) pod, I'm fully supporting you're point of view here, and I think your points are clear and well articulated.

Jeremiah: I fully agree.

I have nothing to add, realy. I just want to suport both your point of views.

One little point of view though that I see is the following:

- Children from 7 to 11 experience what Freud called “the latency” stage. It is a very “conventional” time of their development when they learn to integrate the rules and be the rules.

In psychotherapy,a lot of the work is to help people go past that “conventional” stage, which is caracterized by a high sensitiveness to other people's judgement. This conventionality is certainly something we all need to integrate, but the process of individuation should not stop here. In order to become close to one's own self, we all need to go beyond “What people think of us”. This is a hard work, but it leads to a more fuller personality that can be more complexely creative and spontaneous.

This seed thing has elicited many answers like: “It reminds me of my school days”. And this is certainly not to be discarded lightly. It is a technique that will probably enhance “Conventionality” and there is no wonder that it reminds some of us of a moment of development  were our surroundings and our development was centered around the integration of conventionality.

The other analogy that has been spoken too is the “tyranical state” one. Conventionality enforced by the people against the people, and prevention of individuation and creative behaviour are central features of that kind of government. We can also quite clearly see how the seed principle will foster that kind of  feeling.

Basicaly, I think this seed thing is going to ennhance banality, mediocrity, what is mostly loved, conventionality _ because, yes, thiese kind of attitudes also exists in the spiritual comunities.

Hope you guys will put some water in your wine!

Patrick

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

I'm curious–genuinely–about what you believe might be a better means of moderation. We're truly open to this. So far this new system has been met with quite a bit of criticism, but I haven't heard many (any?) constructive or creative ideas for something better. This felt like the most fair and empowering means we could come up with for community moderation, and we did but a great deal of thought into it. But if you have suggestions for something more healthy, something that won't “enhance conventionality,” please please please let us know.

I know. Zaadz feels safe. This place feels like a haven, an oasis, someplace that can be trusted and secure. This isn't an accident, though! The sanctity of this community is the result of discernment and standards. Our team, especially the community support crew, works to make sure that those who don't abide by these standards–those who come on and start sending messages to, say, purchase Viagra, or those who come and send harrassing notes to women on the site–get removed. And now we're attempting to give you a voice in those decisions, and to give you, the community, some of that responsibility… and you're saying you don't want it, and that you prefer to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.

It's curious to me. :)

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Better form of moderation

Hi, Siona,

You say, “I'm curious–genuinely–about what you believe might be a better means of moderation.”  I'm not certain that I need a better form of moderation.  I haven't been at Zaadz long, but from what I have seen of this site, the current moderators, most of whom I do not know, so please don't take offense, seem to be doing a great JOB.

IF it ain't broke, don't fix it.  The entire time I was at Omidyar.net, good, well-meaning people, myself included, although I do not know how good and well-meaning I am, fought like children over the point system there.  From the earliest days of Omidyar, until literally the last few posts, the point-system hung over Omidizens' heads like a sword.

The problem is not point-systems.  The problem is people.  Everyone will suddenly get self-righteous about something, sooner, or later.  WE, human beings, are deeply-flawed critters who learn from sharing, cooperating, and seeing Others model behaviors that WE want to try out for ourselves.  All these methods for learning are interaction-oriented.

Point-systems of any sort, remove US one more step from interaction.  Like pokes and woos at other sites, points of any sort become a shorthand, so to speak, for crowds in the Colosseum to show THEIR own baser instincts

I don't think that I am saying that I want “to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.”  I am saying that when I have a problem, I would prefer to work it out through communication and discussion.  I would prefer that when Others have a problem with ME that THEY at least try to work it out with ME first.  I think seeds like point-systems everywhere else, will work to diminish people working things out.

I am happy to know that the team is there, but at Omidyar, WE were very self-policing through posts directed at changing behavior.  When there was a definite problem with spammers, or trolls, they were removed without appeal, or prejudice.

Just like here.

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Siona,

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x

x

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Well, we reached Godwin's Law pretty quickly in this thread.  And as completely unhelpful as this comment was, I'm not flagging it down or for review.  If it were explicit or confrontational, I would.

And that's how it will go. 

Is anyone seriously worried that they will be negatively affected by this system?  I mean really, are you?  If so, then who else is out to get you?  The answer, friend, is no one.  Your kookiness is not a threat or concern to anyone, and will not be dampened here, surely. 

And for my money, Zaadz is about as politically uncorrect and radical as it gets, while still being a caring and reasonable place.  Be the first of that, but also be the second.  Does anyone have a serious problem with that?

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Jeremiah,

“To summarily lock our previously discussions of this on the pod we were requested to comment on without transferring the threads over here does not engender our trust of admin.”

thanks for pointing it out. but there was no malice in locking the thread. to be honest, i've added a link to that thread before i've even read your post :) check it out.

the discussion should've been on the Thinktank pod in the first place. i take full responsibility for goofing and pointing it on the HOW TO pod. my apologies.

the HOW TO pod is for questions about features. feedback and concerns should be posted on this (Thinktank) pod.

carry on with the discussion.

~C

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

JEREMIAH ….mind the glass house you live in…

Would Hitler engage in the conversation that has started here…

NO! Hitler would scream out then run and call for his henchmen to finish the job….much like you have dropping in a couple of comments…and then leaving the table quickly…

The Team here @ Zaadz have engaged in a discussion with you…and have already made changes to the system….I don't remember things working like that when I lived in “Communist China” and people did not like things….(have you ever lived in one of these countries…during abhorent times and conditions????????)

A fascist or communist would make a quick comment…much like you have done….puff up their chest similar to the way you have… and more over… they would then “line you up” and do with you as they please…

I really wish you could throw some bad seeds at me for this post… because I know what I am saying is most likely bothering you…and you would prefer that I don't continue to talk about your opinion like this….(and will continue too, especially now that there is no way for  you to bury it  with bad seeds) I will also “digg this post”, “stumble this post”, and “bookmark” this post every way I can so as many people as possible can see it…

I hope you apologize for you vulgar and insane comparison to some of the most evil things in the world…

I am happy to read and engage in debates,  and I think most others are too, it's part of the reason…Zaadz is different and  it's one of the reasons people flock here….but the calliousness you display here is truly an insult, and a betrayal to that cross you where around your neck in your profile picture…

~definitive

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Yeah. I was a little bothered by Matthew's locking of the thread over there, even if I do understand his rationale–that space was intended to serve as a “how to” and FaQ area. Still, I think philosophical debate always has a place.

I'm still trying to get my head around how this is fascist, though! Isn't it more, um, Orwellian if the power is aggregated in the hands of a few?

I'll address David's points, though. I don't think this community is into anonymous “f-you” giving. I don't think it would even occur to me to use those seeds in such a fashion, and I can't imagine this is different for others.

And people can always defend themselves against negative feedback, just by taking their concerns to the team. Again, I really can't imagine this will be much of a problem–the hope is that the flagging will only be used for blatant violations of the terms–but if someone does feel they've been unfairly repremanded, they can always appeal. Really, though, how many times do you think the negative feedback button will be used? I'd hope, again, that it would be a very innfrequent thing.

Do you know it will increase mistrust? And don't you think this community is discerning and tolerant enough to appreciate those who are pushing into new territory? There's a difference, obviously, between speaking out in dissent and doing so in an offensive or disrespectful fashion. The seeds are meant to speak to the latter.

I like your shadow point. Maybe when you send a bad seed you get one yourself. :)

And we're COMPLETELY open to other options. Do you have any suggestions for a means of handling abuse? Please please please weigh in!

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Siona said, ”Yeah. I was a little bothered by Matthew's locking of the thread over there, even if I do understand his rationale–that space was intended to serve as a “how to” and FaQ area. Still, I think philosophical debate always has a place.”

Siona, philosophical debate does have a place.  Regarding that TR system, that place is on the Think Tank.  I'm sorry I had to end the conversation over there, but it must be done.  It can continue here.

In case you're wondering why I locked it over there, the reason is quite simple:  As the HTFAQs pod is meant for people to find answers to commonly asked questions or instructions on how to use something, if debates are allowed to take place there, then it defeats the whole purpose of why I created that pod to begin with!  eg. Someone searches for how to use something on the site, and fifty-thousand irrelevant posts pop up.  That's not ok.  Make sense?

Continue debating.  Do it here on the Think Tank.  That's one of the reasons I created this pod.  OK?

~M

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Touche. :)

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

OK, I'd like to try to recap some of this:

FACT: A new Zaadz Trust system has been in the work for a while, and it just debuted.

FACT: Some strong and articulate voices immediately came out in opposition to the new system, and a few people have already left Zaadz (or said they would).

FACT: The Trust system isn't fully enabled yet, and there's a good deal of confusion as to how it actually works.

So, there is confusion and dissent, and there have also been some good (productive) conversations as well as some tending towards the organizational ad hominem and the personal ad hominem in response.

My own, personal, reaction was, admittedly, instantaneously negative. (One thing I have learned over time is to trust my instincts and my bodily reaction to things. And my bodily reaction was that some kind of weird wounding had certainly occurred.) To me, it felt like this was another step away from what makes Zaadz unique, and that, as many have pointed out, it potentially may forever alter the vibe on Zaadz, and not in a good way.

Now, I'm not going to jump ship right away, because I like it here. I feel like I have contributed a good deal, and that I have received a great deal as well. But I do expect behavior and conversational openness to be altered, and probably not in a good way.

(And, for the record, I have only had one negative encountered with anyone on Zaadz, and if this system was in place, that person would have continued in a negative and spiteful way, I believe, to harm me if at all possible, even though I believe that person was entirely in the wrong. And that's one of the problems with this whole system: there inevitably *will* be people who will misuse it.)

So, having read a good hour's worth of other's people comments, here are my questions:

(1) While I know Zaadz isn't a democracy, was any thought given to polling a subset of the members–either survey-style or with open-ended questions–and ask them how they would react to this system?

(2) Was any thought given to trying this out on just a subset of the folks here?

(3) Is there a way to opt out of the Trust-seeds system? If not, why not? Perhaps those who didn't stay opted-in would have somewhat less posting and navigation freedom, a minor carrot to stay in, but not a kind of “imposed authoritarian” ratings system.

(4) If Zaadz really regards the membership as its most valuable resource, then how seriously have you taken the fact that such strong instant negative feedback came from multiple individuals of good standing? With such similar themes? That is, it clearly seems to me that you have sown some seeds of dissent here…maybe this is feedback you can use to refine your process before further introducing such controversial system-wide changes so abruptly?

(5) Can you really, truly, look me in the eye and say that this has nothing to do with the desire to make Zaadz more popular so it generates more money for Gaiam, i.e., a kind of Facebook-ization of Zaadz? I understand that Zaadz is designed to make money ultimately, but walking that fine line between “conscious capitalism” and “capitalism-that-continues-to-destroy” is not an easy task.

The truth is, I don't think you would have had such a strong reaction if this was handled better…maybe even a two week Advance Notice or something…and if you don't want to be pegged as ultimately being driven by the same forces that drive most of everything else, you're going to have to do a better job at implementing potentially divisive changes.

Finally, as for other ways to moderate the system, I will admit that I wasn't aware how much scanning and monitoring was already being done here, and I thank you for that. But as nice as it would be to have a system like this “take on that task,” you really do have to look at the fact that the other site that provided the model failed in part because of how that model went down. (At least, that's what I read earlier here.) It may be that if you want a vibrant, robust, spiritually-centered site, there will be a necessity to monitor what goes on that can not be given to the members of the site itself (one of those: “you can't solve a problem at the level that a problem is created” kind of things).

I know you, Zaadz team, all work hard and have your heart in this, but you have to take the feedback that something really did go wrong here in the way this all went down. From there, perhaps, something that works better for everyone can be reached.

best blessings,

Jordan

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Awesome, Jordan - just quick hits:

5) This was on the list long before Gaiam - we've wanted a way to let the best stuff rise to the top, to get more attention - and to help flag creeps

4) It's a natural and predictable response, and we would hope people play devil's advocate, to help us see our blind spots

3) All we're trying to do is [see point 5 above].  The opt-out is a decent idea, somewhat defeating the purpose, but maybe it can be integrated in…

2) Si, and I was one of the guinea pigs

1) It's been a request of many users, so that's one side.  From the other, there would be immense chest beating and angst regardless.  We have to give it a shot, so here it is - if it fails, we'll adjust according to new realizations. 

And all in accordance with the spirit that is here, promise :)

Thanks again for the excellent and thoughtful letter!

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Jordan!

Nice. :)

1) I suppose we were a little naive in not polling the members; we'd just imagined a moderation system that gave the community the most say would be preferable to one that consolidated the decision-making power in the hands of a few.

2) We tried the system out among the admins to see whether it worked. To be fair, this probably wasn't a representative group; none of us really paid much attention to the negative feedback option (but I'd hope this would be indicative of how others would see it).

3) Wouldn't opting out defeat the purpose? You can always choose not to give seeds, and unless you're doing something really terrible or obviously abusive, I doubt you'll need to worry about getting any negative feedback–for the most part, Zaadz is a very nonjudgmental and live-and-let-live place. I see no reason why this wouldn't continue–so this would be as good as opting out. No?

4) Your fourth point is definitely important. If everyone really continues to feel THAT strongly about not wanting to participate, we could go back to the former, 'invisible' policing system. That said, I'm well aware that it tends to be those who don't like something new who speak out; what about those who haven't responded? Or the notes I've gotten in my inbox that say “I don't get what the big deal is! This seems like a perfectly reasonable moderation system to me…” :)

As to your final point, well, that's easy! The Trust system had been in the works (starting out on our list of 'features to implement' and then, later, being coded) long, long before Gaiam came into the picture. I actually don't see how it would make the site “more popular” to anyone who's not already a member; it's more to encourage participation, to help valuable content 'bubble to the top,' and again, to give you a much larger say in what happens here.

And Jordan? Thank you. We're learning about the Advance Warning thing, it seems. In the future I promise to use the Team blog to play more of a 'heads up'! rather than a 'surprise!!!' role.


(Oops. Chris already got to this. Oh well… now you've got both of our independent answers. :)

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Siona, my concern is based on experiences over at Yahoo 360. We actually had a group that was going around and attacking/hacking others profiles. One gentle soul was so inundated that she not only was driven off the site, but also had to seek psychiatric help. I understand your rationale for this system, but I think that once Zaadz starts to become more known some not so nice people may find their way here. If the “bullies” like were found on 360 come here, what is to stop them from harrassing others, especially if they can do it anonymously.
There are also quite a few “sensitive souls” here who may not be able to handel personal attacks. They are people of peace and some may not be able to handle negative attacks.
Some of the changes recently have been nice. The shoutouts allowing your friends to say hey for the world to see. I don't need to see what I have been doing. (I think I did go into my profile and disabled that.) Seeing what my friends are doing and being able to filter that info was nice. I subscribe to some friends blogs, but there are others that I may not be and this lets me see when they are blogging. Unfortunately, at first that moved my pods list down and I had to scroll down a bit to get to my pod link. It appears you have rectificed that by moving it to the right column under friends. Better thanks, but it would be nice if we could choose where we wanted things placed.
So there are some kudos here for some of the changes. I, like many others, do not care for the seeds idea, but it isn't make or break for me. Mostly, I will just ignore it. I just think that for those who are just “getting their voice” and opening up, which can be a form of therapy, allowing others to give negative seeds may retard that growth.
Zaadz has been a great place for many to come, plant a seed, and watch it grow. Many of us who have been here a while have seen some great changes, made many new friends, and found a place that was safe, enlightened and free from “adult” type things. A place of peace and harmony. I just pray that the changes taking place, will not start putting tarnish on such a great site.
Just my two pence
White Wolf

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Thank you, WhiteWolf.

We're working to change things so that the system won't be so easily manipulated; I'll post an update to that effect soon.  Right now the negative feedback exists only in the form of a 'flag for review', so that people can tag inappropriate content. I think we'll make it so that a reason needs to be given for any negative feedback, so that people can't just anonymously 'rank down' a post. And the positive feedback system is as before–you can gather seeds by being active on the site, and give them away to whomever or whatever you'd like. It's a means whereby the community as a whole can decide where the most valueable work can be found.

You know, I can understand the dislike of the seeds if they're seen as some kind of popularity contest, but this sincerely wasn't the intent–it was meant for the group to work as a group (and as a community) to discover the best output of Zaadz. I remember certain members saying that we should produce, say, a Zaadz book that included highlights from the community, and this, say, might be a good starting place. The hope was that everyone could contribute to discovering and deciding on this sort of content. Apparently we didn't do that great a job getting this across, though…

But thank you for the kinds words about the other little surprises, and we'll work at finessing things there. (I like seeing what I've been doing because sometimes I forget where I've been posting, but I can understand not wanting that to take up space.)

And I'm praying with you.

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

You've got your answer, Ing - there are no bad seeds  :)

Ahhhh, me too…

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Hi Siona,
I am able to block incoming calls from certain numbers on my phone, block spam on my email, block shows on my TV.  Would it be possible for me (us) to individually block someone from sending messages, commenting, and maybe even seeing my blog?  The person would get the message quite directly if they tried to send any more unwanted notes and it would allow me to stop undesired attention.
hugs,
 Sprite

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Sprite!

We're actually working on that now; it's possible for the developers to implement 'blocking,' but there's no user interface for it yet. It'll happen, though! And perhaps that would be a more subtle way of moderating… if a person gets blocked by everyone they try to commuicate with, it's pretty apparent that they're not exactly abiding by the terms.

Thank you for this. It's nice to hear about a positive solution or alternative to this. :)

Siona

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

The drop downs are pretty specific, it doesn't seem likely that flagging for a violation of the user agreement is going to fuel petty differences of opinion.

I do like the idea of members having a voice in evaluating our own community. And it's nice that there are positive options as well - the option to flag as inappropriate exists on lots and lots of sites (and Hitler hasn't really taken over SlashDot, just for example) but the positive feedback is especially nice. I get to feel like the good faerie, going around and leaving little gifts.

My only fear at this point is just about myself - I don't want to get caught up in whether I'm one of the popular kids. My best qualities have always come out of being way too nonbaseline for that, and when I blog, for example, I'm just talking to myself. And letting other people listen in. And I already notice that even though I try not to think about it, I notice how many hits blog posts get. But that's just me.

Anyway, the dropdowns are clearly not about being the politcal correctness officer,  and I don't think Hitler is going to take our friends away in the night for having a way to give feedback, but is there a possiblity that negative seeds would not have the anonymous function, or else that there could be a system to contest them if someone is just being pissy with you, with the man behind the curtain being able to erase them if there wasn't any inappropriate content? The user agreement allows for shadow sides and philosophical differences, it seems like there might be a way to monitor the use of negative feedback if it's contested. Maybe?

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Time will tell whether the “Seed Bank” idea will make the Zaadz Community healthier or weaker.  This has definately fueled lots of activity which is fun to watch.  Another great opportunity to look in the mirror.
Part of me wants to give all my seeds away.  Part of me wants to hord them.  Part of me knows it doesn't really matter.
Might be a Big Mistake, but growth always comes from big mistakes.
Peace out cubscouts.
Rhyno

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Maybe when people give out negative feedback we could have a little mirror pop up. :)

Thanks, Rhyno. I'm watching the same in myself, and I'm completely with you about enjoying the debate this has sparked. But then, I love these discussions.

To growth!

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

rapunzel,

“I do like the idea of members having a voice in evaluating our own community. And it's nice that there are positive options as well - the option to flag as inappropriate exists on lots and lots of sites (and Hitler hasn't really taken over SlashDot, just for example) but the positive feedback is especially nice. I get to feel like the good faerie, going around and leaving little gifts.”

exactly! one of the things being ignored in this conversation is that we're giving community members power to have their say on the contents of the site! a lot of attention was focused on the negative potential of the Trust System.

but just to let you know, the system is designed to avoid misuse and abuse by malicious users. that's the purpose of the Seed Bank.

as you pointed out “Hitler hasn't really taken over SlashDot”. that's because people on SlashDot are familiar with the system and there are check and balances in place to avoid abuse. and we have those check and balances on our Trust System too. not to mention that we (admins) will be the last line of defense against any abuse in our community.

to everyone,

again, the Trust System was designed to put power in your hands in moderating our community. it's a voting system, trust system, reputation system, self-regulating system, all rolled into one. we trust that members of our community are intelligent, compassionate and reasonable enough to use this feature accordingly.

now let's focus on the positive aspect of the Trust System.

1) it's a way to place your vote on good contents so they would bubble up on the site.

2) it's a way of sending your gratitude to other members who have touched your stay here on Zaadz by rewarding them more visibility on the site.

3) it's a way for the community to “self-regulate.”

but then again, you don't have to use it! in fact, the best way to use this is to just keep it in the background and use it only if and when you have to. just keep doing what you're doing. be who you say you are. do what you think you have to do. say what you have to say. be yourself. and let the community “self-regulate” itself (ourselves).

having said that, we'll continue to refine the system based on your feedback. but we ask that you keep the discussion civil. we understand your concerns. we're here to listen.

and when all things are said and done, the effectiveness of the Trust System is dependent on everyone on this site. so use it wisely and with care.

thanks for all your feedback and understanding.

~C

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

And of course, while I was typing something brilliant popped into the thread and I missed it, so I just want to say,
Sprite!
That's an awesome idea.
I play Eve online and being able to block the crazies and the spammers improves the experience enormously. That would be lovely. Glad to hear it's in the works.

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

I think Jeremiah hit it on the head with this: “And this so-called system will undermine the trust that is there now.”

I have heard the arguement “People here are so trustworthy; they won't abuse this system,” but if they were so trustworthy and well-motivated why would we need the system at all?
 
For the most part people on Zaadz are great, but there are those few who aren't, or who aren't always, so for those few we need a system to deal spam and abuse. The first line of defense includes the moderators of each pods and bloggers, who should moderate their own blog and who have been doing a great job on the pods I have participated on. These moderators should have a place to report to, and participants within a pod should know that they have a duty to report abusive behavior to moderators. When bloggers or perhaps even moderators are abusive, zaadzsters could report directly to the spamming board on this pod or some other pod.

With regard to z-mail problems–as well as general abuse–people have to know about the spamming board here. I recieved some z-mails recently I thought I should report–a woman telling me she was going to commit suicide–and I didn't know where to go with it. I wrote several z-mails, contacted a moderator, reported the z-mail as spam. I didn't know about the spam board here, so of course I didn't know to report it here. So if that were advertised a little–including some encouragement to use it and the reasons why people should, with links to it on each pod, and perhaps even on each profile–the Zaadz team would be alerted to such things.

I'm really sorry that people have been taken by scams, but I don't see how the seed system would prevent that. What isn't fair is an anonymous system where people can send negativity to eachother without explanation or accountability. The person on the receiving end just receives a big shot of negativity, and they wouldn't know why or from whom and would then have to take time to investigate, and they may never even get an explanation and be able to learn from it, if in fact they made a mistake. And of course the z-mail system is in place–as well as threads and zim chats–so there are many ways people can discuss things openly already, and that's much better than sending anonymous bad seeds. For people who are shy or afraid of more abuse, there is the spam board here (once everyone knows about it and what it's for) and moderators.

Thank you, Siona, Mathew, and Jake. I appreciate your comments, your openness, and your thorough and caring responses.

~David

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

David?

We're making a few adjustments. We're going to make it so that you can't give individuals negative feedback; only content. Hopefully this will separate out that feeling of judgment or 'sending negativity to each other.' (And again, I do trust that this community will use the negative feedback option only in cases where the posting is really detracting from the safety of this space.)

It's funny. I remember when we first implemented the spam buttons (and the flag for review) in the mail system. It was hard, because it did put up the reminder that NOT everyone is good, and did contribute to that sense of mistrust or concern. But in the interests of keeping this place healthy and people's inboxes unspoiled by spam, the little button made sense. This feels similar.

But I love your first point! It is a paradox, hm? And it is a bit of an experiment. Are we, as a community, capable of being trusted with this system? Or do we need to be protected, instead, by a small group up top? For the past two years, it's been the latter, and this seems to have more-or-less worked. It's certainly true that we could go back to this invisible system instead–we could hire a few more moderators and keep working behind the scenes. If you as a community don't feel you can be trusted with this sort of system–and it does sound as though some of you really don't want that responsibility–perhaps we ought reconsider.

I think we should give it a shot, though.

And thank you again, David, for your own courage and dissent and kind concern.

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

David,

“With regard to z-mail problems–as well as general abuse–people have to know about the spamming board here. I recieved some z-mails recently I thought I should report–a woman telling me she was going to commit suicide–and I didn't know where to go with it. I wrote several z-mails, contacted a moderator, reported the z-mail as spam. I didn't know about the spam board here, so of course I didn't know to report it here. So if that were advertised a little–including some encouragement to use it and the reasons why people should, with links to it on each pod, and perhaps even on each profile–the Zaadz team would be alerted to such things.”

thanks for bringing this up. this is a somewhat different issue. and we'll deal with this accordingly. we'll add this to our list of features and make it more obvious where and how to report spamming and scamming activities.

in the meantime, we've dedicated the following threads on this issue. see below.

REMINDER: Be mindful of Internet scams

HOW TO: Report Spam Messages

Spam Alert: Be Mindful of the Messages You Receive

when in doubt, feel free to contact us any time.

as always, thanks to all your insighful feedback. keep 'em coming :)

~C

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Oh, Rhyno, give them away! That's what they're for!  At this point there are so many awesome posts and brilliant people that I actually sat down and made a list so I wouldn't forget where I had distributed thingies….but I admit, I'm planning to save a few back in case the next awesome thing has come up and I've emptied my seed pouch…

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Personally, I think the distribution of seeds is a great idea that just needs a little more massaging to work with the intended effect.  Thankfully, I have never felt harrassed on this site, nor have I felt the need to distribute any 'bad' seeds. 

I actually like to know when I've of