Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is?

Well it seems like it is time for a new thread again!

I am interested in hearing people's thoughts on the difference between pre and trans.

Seeing as this is a forum for Inetgral related material I am sure everyone here is somewhat familiar with:

1) Ken Wilber's groundbreaking essay The Pre/Trans Falllacy
2) The developmental stages of psychological development as mapped out by Ken using the work of Piaget (cognition), Kohlberg (morals), Gebser and others.
3) The Spiral Dynamics model of how developmental stages occur in cultures/societies.

Based on these exciting observations we have this broad three stage model that says there is for example:

Preconventional                      Conventional                    Postconventional

Prerational                               Rational                               Transrational

Archaic/Magic/Mythic               Rational                               Integral

Sensorimotor/preop             Concrete Operations            Formal Operations/Vision Logic

Purple/Red/Blue                  Orange/Green                        Yellow/Turquoise


Now it gets interesting when we decide where different things belong on this map.

Those of us that are familiar with the models may have an abstract grasp but sometimes be unsure how it actually applies to ourselves, the world etc..


So, let's pick somethings and discuss where they fit into these basic three broad stages of development.

Sound interesting?

If you are not familiar with the Integral material I am siggesting above I am sure that I or someone else here can provide you with links to create some context….

A good place to start viz the previous thread “Spiritual Atheism”, might be asking the following questions:

1 a) What differentiates the prerational worldview from the rational worldview?

b) How does this reflect in the spirituality of people whose orientation is prerational and how in those who are rational?

2 a) Next, what differentiates the rational worldview from the transrational worldview?

b) How does this show up in both rational and transrational spiritualities?

3 a) Last (and most challenging for us) What is the difference between prerational and transrational worldviews?

b) How does this difference show up in prerational and transrational spiritualities?

c) What makes us confuse the two and why?

Of course The Pre/Trans Fallacy essay is invaluable here.

Anyone wanna get us started?

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

may i start just by adding another question? what practices/study etc help people move “up”?

thanks for asking all these great questions! i really look forward to hearing some answers.

love

nicole

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

love the question nicole.

this is something i am actively working on.

a) well we know from research that ken refers to that meditation over a 5 or 6 year period actually measurably moves people up as much as two levels on several developmental scales….this is exciting! but it does nothing for the shadow material.

b) depth psychotherapeutic practices are primarily useful in resolving the dissociation of the socially/familially repressed shadow material that much spirituality unfortunately perpetuates and exacerbates. this also can helo free up energy and consciousness that has gotten stuck in the earlier levels of development.

c) study of intellectual material that requires excercising strong rational concrete operations skills - logic, philosophy, politics as well gettting well established in formal operations - poetry, mythology, the arts, literature helps people to grow cognitively into more upper level worldviews.

d) body based/pranic practices like yoga, qi gong, and even vipassana or holotropic breathwork can serve both the awakened embodiement process as well as be vehicles for body-mind integhration that includes psycho-emotional process…

meditation can also be a way to explore what it means to really commit to an inquiry-based appproach to awareness rather than a faith-based set of constructs. deconstructing the power of myth of the given can happen quite beautifully in meditation - which allows for higher levels of awareness to emerge……

all genuine stage wise growth is scary and requires that we surrender the defenses that have kept us feeling stable and safe at the previous level - this means we will necessairliy have to deal with the shadow we have been avoiding at each new threshold in order to move forward…

to summarize, the 3 aspects that i am writing about in this regard are:

1) cognitive development
2) shadow work
3) inquiry-based spiritual practice

but of course all of the above discussion depends upon a well understood model of development and an unflinching willingness to apply it ot ourselves and the world .

~julian

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Hi Julian,

Loved your response to Nicole, and for now would just like to gently tease out, with the help of other people's insights too, I hope, what depth and breadth of meaning is contained within this simple word 'meditation', and also to ask you to be rather more specific with regard to how much, and of what type (without just saying 'pre-rational'!) is the “much spirituality [that] unfortunately perpetuates and exacerbates [socially/familially repressed shadow material]”. In fact it would be helpful for me if you could specify which spiritual practices / methods / vehicles even, don't perpetuate and exacerbate “….. socially/familially repressed shadow material …”

With regard to your point (a), the bit that I'm interested in being “… meditation ….. does nothing for the shadow material”, I am familiar with and have my own experience of and in primarily awareness-based spiritual practices (and I'm not here referring to my qi gong practice) that are 'meditation', except in movement, not cushion-bound, that clearly do bring up shadow material into consciousness / awareness, and that simultaneously are working with the energy body, in such a way that in my experience shadow material does get worked with, processed … and I'm not implying completely, here, process being the process it is.

Ok, I've just re-read point (d). So another question that arises now is: assuming both qi gong and vipassana can be viewed as meditation (well-respected teacher Zhi Xing Wang almost invariably says 'come out of your meditation' as a session is coming to an end) in your opinion does the “psycho-emotional process” you refer to also include, or at least allow for, working with shadow material?

Best,

Lol

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Thanks Lol and Julian, this is exactly the type of exploration I am looking for. Because as wonderful as it is to have endless discussions about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or the difference between pre and trans, and as light-bringing in that discussion as trans and others have been, when the day is done, if we're still deeply Shadowed, unmindful in our actions and not moving forward spiritually, are we truly becoming or just talking about becoming?

Namaste,

Nicole

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

ma rig pa

this is in response to your questions about what i was saying re: meditation, shadow etc…

i must admit ot having very little experience of dzochen. it has always seemed to me like a beautiful and deep practice. i definitely bow to your experience here and am very open to hearing about how your practice serves as a vehicle for shadow awareness/work.

my own experience with vipassana has been that it can definitely be such a vehicle, but only if practiced within a context that makes space for the psyche, rather than attempting to merely transcend it.

in my statement about meditation not addressing shadow material i am following wilber from several different interviews, as well as my own observation and that of several transpersonal theorists (welwood, kornfield, engler, kalsched) - that what often happens with those of us who follow spiritual practices without adequate attention to the psyche/shadow work is an increasing dissociation rather than an integration.

the capacity to dispassionately observe and disidentify from one’s experience so championed in the transcendentalist approaches, while powerful and beneficial in certain regards can also be repressive in others. this is widely discussed in the above transpersonal literature.

this is where an integral guide can potentially be so useful imo. i am so excited by the possibilities of the next generation of interally informed meditation teachers and therapists!

of course i agree that movement practices can be deeply meditative i their own way, i was making a distinction for the sake of inclusivity, beween purely still meditation practice and that of movement - and emphasizing both.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

1 a) What differentiates the prerational worldview from the rational worldview?

The prerational worldview can be modeled rationally, but not visa-versa.

b) How does this reflect in the spirituality of people whose orientation is prerational and how in those who are rational?

Prerational spiritual people tend to:

• 1. Place little or no value on rationality when used to examine (question validity) core religious/spiritualist assumptions.
• 2. Hold  rationality in high regard and status when a “rational” authority figure uses rationalism to bolster core religious/spiritualist assumptions.
• 3. Use rationality in service of prerationality, and thus dishonor the value of rationality.
  
  

2 a) Next, what differentiates the rational worldview from the transrational worldview?

The transrational worldview cannot be modeled rationally, but the rational worldview CAN be understood (not mapped or rationally modeled) transrationally.

b) How does this show up in both rational and transrational spiritualities?

Rational spiritual people tend to:

• 1. Place little or no value on transrationality when used to examine (question validity) core religious/spiritualist assumptions.
• 2. Hold  transrationality in high regard and status when a “transrational” authority figure uses rationalism to bolster core religious/spiritualist assumptions.
• 3. Use transrationality in service of rationality, and thus dishonor the value of transrationality.

3 a) Last (and most challenging for us) What is the difference between prerational and transrational worldviews?

The differences cannot be adequately explained rationally.  They can only be understood transrationally.  Transrational “understanding” is not by nature rational, and thus defies taxonomic categories, cartographies, and all linguistic rational modeling schemes.  The differences are noticed through embodiment and enactment in a case by case, moment to moment way.

b) How does this difference show up in prerational and transrational spiritualities?

Barely at all from the POV of the rationalist.

c) What makes us confuse the two and why?

They both look irrational.  And rationality is the primary medium of linguistic exchange. 

Go beyond the language, go beyond the mapping and categorizing.  Then see the differences.  Cultivate full-bodied intuition.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

ah nice response transient! i have to go because my yoga partner is here, but i look forward to replying….

thanks
~j

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

okay, here is rediscovering astrology, by sweet Thomas Moore over here for the pre/post analysis:

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/issues/moore221.htm

I am back at work right now…..it is a full moon…in the past 2 hours we have had a 5 person MVA, a retained placenta with a delivery, and an overseas flight from amsterdam is dropping off a woman in active labour, ……..and the night is still so very young……so it is a good night to discuss full moons and so on….

I do though often think about the stars….about the big bang, the 13.8 billion years that has ensued….how the light from the stars is travelling back to meet my eye.  How in the past 13.8 billion years, my eye has been arriving too, against all odds, though all sorts of attractions and repulsions, permutations and combinations, in this moment ready to catch the light from the star….This astounds me……Thomas Moore reminds me of my astonishment.  It does not seem prerational…but actually rational and clear, and then beyond rational to miraculous and phenomenal…..

Now back to the full moon mayhem in the emergency department….

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Hi Jane

I'm so glad you're with us! Thanks for the link to the Thomas Moore article, brief as it is.

I will stand up and declare my interest in astrology, and how I can find it useful and helpful, but can't go so far as to say I believe in astrology. I have to say I was deeply unimpressed with the attempt at 'disproving' astrology that I read, narrated by our Ken in 'One Taste' ….. because for me it completely misses the point. I am not in the least bit interested in or have any 'faith' in predictive astrology, solar astrology, statistics etc. and in no way do I consider the position or movements of the planets to be in any way causative of anything happening in my life, and I don't embrace the notion that there are extremely subtle influences exerted by the planetary bodies in terms of gravitational or some type of subtle energetic influence ….. and yet equally I am not closed to this possibiility.

But I do appreciate and respect the work of the likes of Liz Greene and Alice O. Howell, both Jungian analysts (and astrologers), and recognise that the planets (including Sun and Moon here) can be viewed as symbols of archetypes, and am prepared to at least allow that in the natal chart  they can be representative of powerful archetypal forces in the individual pyche. I don't have a rational explanation for this, I'm not sure if there is one, but I am open to the possibility that there is a transrational explanation.

What allows me to accept that the natal chart may give a picture of potential dynamics and archetypal relationships within the psyche are the apparent synchronicities that show up in my life and do seem to be related, at least synchronistically (if that is the correct adjective pertaining to the noun 'synchronicity'), to transits to my natal chart.

I welcome the rational gaze on what could possibly be viewed as irrational behaviour ….. maybe it could be revealed that my predilection for this way of relating to astrology stems from something as yet unworked with in my psyche ….. but interestingly enough I do feel I have benefitted from all the mulling over, musing upon, ruminating on such matters over the years, and that this has helped me get to know myself better, aided me in growing 'bigger'. Maybe that's the real point.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Julian, I read thearticle, Rediscovering Astrology, again, and wondered about your hasty conclusion that it is 'pre-rational'.  Actually, I suspect you did not read it at all!  If  you did  read it, and have unequivocally determined that it is 'pre-rational', I would conceed that  there is a lot of work to be done shining light on our differing versions of what 'trans-rational' is about…..and the 'work' makes me feel a bit discouraged.
For the most part, Iam not really one for arguments anymore, though I have done my time railing against the powers that be, with some limited effect. The two fellows on the video clip, Dawkins and the other fellow, at least conceed (words to the effect) that making a better argument that something is 'right,' just means that  you have made a better argument, not that the 'something' is indeed 'right'.  And when people turn their backs and  walk away from these arguments, they often walk away in various states of anger or humiliation.  The heat of these arguments does not  generally touch people with the gentle encouragment to stay true to themselves and find out what is really going on, 'who are you really?'  I often wonder what it is that makes any of us able to  courageously look into our own inner landscape to find the landmarks, soulmarks, that will resonate and bring us to a new way of seeing, and indeed, to a connectivity in the 'we' space of inter-being. 
Jane 

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

yea you're right jane - my bad.

i think i responded hastily so as to try and avoid a drawn out debate about astrology.

the article is nice - i think you are perhaps pointing out the beauty and awe of looking up at the sky and feeling our connection to or identity with the kosmos.

i am with you on that.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

wow jane! what an intense work world you have.

sorry for the snap response before about astrology. i think that like anything else it can of course have transrational archetypal value, but there are several reasons it doesnt resonate for me at all.

i don't think it's necessary to go into that here, unless you specifically want me to.

of course i respect that it is a way for yout o connect to something meaningful.

as far as my pre/trans definitions i find that the way most people who are really into astrology enage it is primarily magical/narcissistic.

it's part of the new age zeitgeist that i find somewhat empty.

my experience is that there is a type of literal belief in astrology that usually goes with a green regressive spiritual worldview. i generally don't find it to be authentically transrational in it's principles, practice or possibilities.

nice poetic reflections in the article you linked though.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Here's my take on “transrational.”  As Wilber often points out, pre-rational and transrational thinking and awareness are often confused, simply because both are non-rational.  But transrational awareness is a non-rational form of cognition which transceds and encompasses rational thinking.  Transrational insights, when they are expressed, are often expressed in rational language; Wilber is masterful at this.  But of course some traditions may chose enigmatic forms of expression, to reveal the limits of and point past conventional rational thought.

In pre-rational awareness, we may think affectively and by association, rather than through the use of inductive reasoning.  The pre-rational worldview may be coherent, but its coherence is on the level of resonance and reflection, meaningful correspondences, affective associations, and so on.  This field of “coherence” may appear seamless and holistic, but it is pre-rational.

In transrational awareness, we may return to a holistic sense of things, but our holistic perspective now encompasses rationality and the ability to relate the items of our awareness through complex logical relationships.  In transrational awareness, while we can use logic, we can perceive the limitations of our logical constructs, as well as the limits of our pre-rational, affective associations.

My understanding is that at the upper limits of rational awareness, we are capable of seeing and thinking from multiple perspectives at once.  We move from a somewhat linear perspective of cause and effect, to more open and decentered forms of reasoning.  We may be able to think things through using classical “excluded middle” logic, but we also have access to “included middle” logic (built on models of transcendence and inclusion).  I see this as the “vision logic” stage.

In transrational awareness, we can become aware of connections that transcend or run deeper than normal causal chains, but in this case, the perspectives which disclose particular causal chains are seen as subsets of a more encompassing awareness.

I expect my explanation here is not without its flaws, but this is my general understanding at this time.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Awesome, B.

….. and extremely useful ….. I think I'm still well in the process of discovering “the limits of [my] pre-rational, affective associations”.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Balder:
“Transrational insights, when they are expressed, are often expressed in rational language; Wilber is masterful at this. But of course some traditions may choose enigmatic forms of expression, to reveal the limits of and point past conventional rational thought.”

And also, to keep the insights from being misused and bastardized. Wilber is masterful at using the language of rationality to express transrational “insights”, and then proceeds to get very annoyed when they are inevitably co-opted by lower-elevation critics who consistently misunderstand him. He’s amazingly smart about perspectives, and equally naïve about the way people will misuse codified systems. He talks about what a perilous situation we are in when WMDs become available to lower meme individuals and groups, then proceeds to do the analogical equivalent himself by codifying “transrational insights”. Any closed system must develop a coherent defense by virtue of its coherence. The overvaluing of coherence for its own sake generates the need for defense.


I’m reminded of a story I was told in childhood about Jesus. In this version of his life he told his followers that he would never do any writing himself, because of the inevitable way that his words would be misused by powers that would arise in his wake. I don’t know if that story has any merit factually, but it has a lot of merit considering how things worked out with Christianity.

Transrational insights can be powerful things. A healthy respect and wisdom is required. Why does the ascending cognitive rationalist’s expression of the sacred dimensions of living so often feel like mere lipservice?


Your explanation of transrationality is useful and appreciated Balder. You appear to know your stuff. Nice discussion here.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

enjoying your eloquence, transient. i look forward to more.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

nice extrapolation balder.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Thomas Berry is a friend of mine.  When my boys were little, he conducted a lovely naming ceremony on the shores of Lake Erie for each of them.  It was a Omaha ceremony which each child is raised up and introduced to the four corners of the earth, and to the stars above and the earth below.  there is a little saying that is repeated, “may your path be easy over the next hill” (or something like that, I am not remembering it perfectly.  Actually, my youngest son, David was screaming his head off through it, and I was trying in vain to have this blissful (pre-rational)moment of deep connection. So actually, I was  distressed that my baby was not being serene and curious, and he was blowing my not-so-serene cover  all to hell as is the nature of children, or at least mine….. Actually, I have pictures of this, with David wailing away.  It makes me laugh now,…but I digress.)  Before the ceremony, Thomas sent me down the path to the lake to get water from the lake.  He said, “We are going to use water, not as a symbol of everlasting life, but as water.  What could be more sacred than that!” and he laughed, knowing that this is also a bit of a digression from his passionist priest training.  “Water as water.  What could  be more sacred than that?!”  As we walked through the beautiful oak forests there, he said  holding out his hands, “Look at this world.  THIS is the first book, and we are ripping pages out of it and destroying them everyday.”  “We are carbon thinking.  We are thinking carbon. Carbon is thinking us.”  “This is a singular time-emergent bio-spiritual reality.” 
On Thomas's 85th birthday, my mother and I drove down from Ontario, to spend the day with him in North  Carolina.  We put together a picnic lunch and a cake and arrived at his little hermitage outside of Greensboro. I had secretly picked up some of those trick candles you can get for birthday cakes, the ones that  keep relighting themselves after you blow them out. Not all 85, maybe 10 or so…… It was so funny to watch as Thomas blew them out over and over, not really noticing them re-light, or even paying attention, or caring…and my mother who adores him, kept being amazed that the candles kept spluttering back to life…..”Did you see that?” she would say.  Thomas without really paying heed, would just blow them out again.  He just seemed too happy that we had visited to care about the details…… Still, the trick candles delighted my mother,…….prerational, awesome, such a great rube, in a way, my mother.  ….  And me, (such a prankster! I can just see my boys rolling their eyes with that 'oh please, you've gotta be kidding' look) I was blown away too, by these two gorgeous older people, playful, and wise…and so newly delighted in this moment…..in that beautiful moment…..
It turned out that while we were visiting that day,  copies of Thomas's book “the Great Work” newly minted, arrived in box…….so there we were in this glorious day……His writing is about the recognizing the 'rational' aspect that holds the pre and trans together….  and about how it is all sacred. ….about the sentience of the natural world…. 
My mother is an amazing woman.  Years ago, with her life in turmoil, she would hide away reading Teilhard de Chardin, and not have anyone to talk to about her amazing discoveries.  (the divine millieu, the phenonmenon of man!) She has been a wonderful advocate for the earth.  Sometimes she says, “all of this boils down to six inches of topsoil, and the fact that water is wet.”……She gives talks like this to the Probis Club and the town council and school children….blue meme, orange meme, green meme, red meme……  All on her own without any collegial presence,  for years she has been standing up and insisiting, “The natural depth of each one of us is the whole of creation.”  and  finally, when she found Thomas Berry, she had someone to talk to that already understood what she was saying.  “We are not a collection of objects.  We are a communion of subjects.”   “Nothing is itself without everything else.”  
Brian Swimme is a student of Thomas's.  And I love listening to him talk.  “hydrogen left on its own become humans”  He holds an awe and a surprise in the way he speaks that I love, that I resonate with…..it is not some voodoo version of enlightenment, and it does not fit perfectly into the AQAL, stages, states, pre/trans map of Ken…..but at the same time, it holds a steady gaze while looking closely at this evolving mystery of being.   I have a friend, who is an anthropologist with the Smithsonian Institute….he comes up to Labrador in the summer….the oldest rock in the world is north of Nain….and a year ago in the summer, the oldest DNA was discovered on it…..! 4.1 billion year old earth, 3.9  billion year old rock, 3.8 billion year old DNA….. unbelievable!  The DNA must be a constant in the universe just like Pi……already enfolded in the ever-emergening recipe….
Anyway, these are all thoughts.  I had a fun night last night.  A plane flying from London to Chicago dropped down from the sky in an emergency landing  into Happy Valley and dropped off a gorgeous couple who proceeded to have a gorgeous baby boy emerge all within an hour of arrival……….the father's name was Paris after the Greek myth's Paris…..the one who ran off with Helen and caused the Trojan War…..My friend, Ramsses, will find that amusing….   and later this morning, as my shift ended, another baby boy arrived out of the mystery, coming out of a young woman who was one of the babies I helped be born some years ago….it is all amazing….this singular, emergent , time-dependent unfolding…..what could be more magical than THIS!

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Beautiful, Jane.  I stand beside you and celebrate the glory of this star-hung world.

And how lucky you are to have a friend like Thomas Berry, and a mother who is so alive to the mystery and wonder of our interbeing.

(I'm lucky, too, to have an amazing, wise mother.  She does things in her simple, direct way that many rationalists dismiss as impossible.  For instance, she traveled as a crow to visit her dying brother.  And he knew it:  this worldly, alcoholic, millionaire lawyer, lying in his deathbed riddled with cancer, called her the next morning and said, “I couldn't sleep well last night.  It was so strange.  I kept dreaming a crow was trying to get into my room.”)

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Bruce.  It is a delight to be hanging out under this star-hung world with you too….

and I love our mothers!  and how mine has  exceeded the limits of my perspective in just about every way……and just when I get it all figured out, there she is with something new….and I am back at the drawing board.

thank you ,  Jane

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Jane, you rock my world! (And I dig Moore, Teilhard, Berry and Swimme too!)

:-)

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

this is the most beautiful post of yours i have read so far jane. thank you so much!

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Julian, I’m not one to put anything I deem substantial into astrology, but I still have seen no viable reason to have it junked.

This next thesis isn’t as impressive as I’d like, but it seems to be a decent balance between what you’re willing to accept and what I’m trying to convey.

Astrology – A Rational Chao/Dynamic Appraisal

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

i haven't had a chance to read anything here yet but am delighted at the activity!

i have been busy winding up the dialog on the spiritual atheism thread.

i ust posted this there, but thought to add it here as it is a somehwat in depth bit on pre and trans and why the distinction matters:


here goes:

hey balder and lauren in particular, and everyone else too!

first i want to suggest two extraordinary books about truma and healing: waking the tiger by peter levine and most especially: the inner world of trauma by donald kalsched.

at the risk of sounding like a pompous ass :O) let's all read the pre/trans fallacy essay again as we get deeper into the new thread. what are the real world psychological implications of this observation? personally i think it gives us a powerful lens to look at the boomeritis spirituality of the green new age collective we are all a part of, willingly or not.

i think the points you two are bringing up begin to get at the heart of what the pre/trans thread i started will hopefully be - a discussion on how we make distinctions between pre and trans. i  look forward to hearing more from you about these ideas specificallly that perhaps go a little deeper into exactly which states/beliefs and why you think should not reside in the prerational camp….

this is obviously a dense and complex conversation and not one that remains contained within the boundaries of theory. it has so much to do with our worldviews, emotions, and longing for meaning and grace.

my position is very simple so far.

all mythologies, metaphysics, magical claims (which we shall define here as anything outside the laws of physics), archetypal beings or symbolic constructs are:

a) taken literally at the prerational level as historic, present or yet to come, facts.
b) shot to pieces as completely non-existent at the rational level (no proof exists for ANY of them)
c) analysed and understood at the transrational level for their metaphoric value and as a beautiful (if partial and often flawed) sign of the extraordinary intuitive symbol generating power of the psyche in it's attempt to interact with the great unknowns of our existence.

the rational gaze, once uplevelled to the transrational, is not put aside. it is the foundation on which transrational interpretation and revelation/epiphany rests. transrational cognition has nno problem making very clear distinctions betwee what is literally real and what is symbolic - neither does it balk at evaluating different interpretations of symbolic material as deeper or more superficial.

easy example:

a) the virgin birth of jesus is believed to be literally true by mythic level prerational christians. this is a prerational belief - by definition.

b) at the rational level we recognise that this is simply an impossibility and is an idea common to several myths/religions that has no basis in fact and yet is held onto by prerational people as a jolly good reason to from time to time butcher and murder those who do not agree, be they religious adherents of another stripe or rational atheists.

c) at the transrational level we become engaged by the poetic wonder of mythology and while recognizing the origins of all mythology as resting in the human psyche, we start to see the sacredness in that mysterious process of meaning making, symbol generating, projecting into the mystery. at this level we being to become adept at interpreting the symbolic references in the mythic material and applying it to our lives and our internal process, without the need to “believe” in it literally (prerationally) and with all the sacredness intact and all the superstition surrendered. so the virgin birth might represent a spiritual kind of birth, a new life taht awakens in the heart and mind, a sense of altruism or compassion that springs forth from no ulterior motive and is therefore uncaused or virgin and mysterious in it's origin…

now i think these three categories are pretty straightforward and i see no need to equivocate about them.

you'll notice that the awe-inspiring relationship to the mystery is absolutely central and that i have ALL THE SPACE IN THE KOSMOS for it. :O)

at the same time i am entirely comfortable DIFFERENTIATING pre from trans and feel that this is important from a theoretical and experiential standpoint.

here's an example of why:

i work one on one with people all the time and i train people to do one on one bodywork/dialog process.

now let's say someone comes in and tells me that they saw jesus last night in their bedroom and he said the end of the world will happen tomorrow at 2 pm.

of course the first question is: have you taken any drugs recently. if not, i would do everything i could to kindly, gently diplomatically, but firmly insist that this person get a thorough psychiatric evaluation. it would be unethical in my opinion not to do so

now many spiritual healers and teachers i know, even licensed therapists would not have this response.

and this is one of the things that is dangerously wrong with the green relativist romanticism that plagues the alternative community.

or how about the person who comes in talking quite seriously about their spirit guides and the literal ghost that haunts them?

now obviously in both cases i am going to be very gentle and much more cautious than i would on a forum with peers. but what would happen for me internally is that i would get as grounded as i can and prepare to hold space for some really powerful and probably unconscious PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA that is being telegraphed to me by this symbolic (but literalized) language.

now of course this is completely different from someone who comes in speaking of having difficulty integrating very expansive meditation experiences with their daily living or with the unfortunate persistence of their emotional triggers.

it is also different than someone coming in and saying that their heart is broken open to the suffering of the world and they have a mind-blowing epiphanic revelation of what jesus or the image of the bodhisattva represents on an archetypal/feeling level.

what i have found over the years is this:

the tendency to literalize (or concretize) spiritual symbols/material is 99% of the time a red flag of one or both of two things:

1) the person has tapped into a very regressed aspect of self that was really traumatized at some point or is operating from a magical defense against feeling some very painful emotions or dealing with intense trauma. (when we are children we have a prerational worldview)

2) the person has suffered a breakdown of the membrane between the conscious and the unconscious mind such that they are in the grips of a psychotic or semi-psychotic delusional state. (meister eckhart- the madman is drowning in the same waters the holy man swims in)

neither of these two states are fun, spiritually advanced, or  levels of perception that are more clear, complex, beautiful or rich than ordinary rational, grounded awareness. though they represent a powerful opportunity for growth if handled well )and if we are lucky) they are actually decompensated, degraded states of being that psychology, spirituality and healing should properly attempt to resolve.

they should not be mistaken with transrational spiritual openings. i have no problem stating unequivocally that for example the paranoid schizophrenic is not experiencing access to a higher truth.

again part of what is so dangerous about the alternative community is that practitioners who do not know the difference between pre and trans will often encourage and fetishize fragmented and dissociated states in their client/students - which only makes them worse and everyone more confused….

so again i think it is about making good distinctions.

pathological. healthy. prerational. ratiional. transrational. accurate. delusional.

to me it is more harsh, more erroneous, more of an insult to the human spirit not to make these distinctions out of a kind of pious “respect” or vague allegiance to “possibility” (that to me just sounds like green relativism) thatn too make the distinctions and actually be of service to people in terms of identifying and resolving pathology, identifying and guiding stagewise healthy growth, identifying and processing issues that have derailed or distorted awareness in any of the lines or at any of the levels of growth.

the difference between pre and trans. pre is at odds with rationality. trans transcends yet includes and rests upon rationality.

all magic fantasy, all mythic literalism, all superstition, all unproven accounts of the laws of physics being eluded are by definition prerational.

this in no way excludes awe at the mystery.

it just puts that awe right back where it belongs: right back in the real world/universe that we live in and the extraordinarily improbable consciousness that is in relationship to it.

this in no way excludes any possibility that there is much to learn and that our understanding of reality will keep deepening.

this in no way is a tyrranical opression of anyone's right to think whatever they want.

it is an attempt to unpack the meaning of certain integral ideas that for me begin with wilber's roots in transpersonal psychology.

se on the next thread - i am excited to hear you flesh out your position on what is pre and trans and why!


:O)
peace and have a great weekend!
~julian

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Hi, Julian,

Thanks for your response.  I'm responding to your letter here rather than the other thread, since this is where the energy seems to be for now.

You may not have read it yet, but if you look further up in this thread, you'll see that I've put forward a few thoughts on my understanding of transrational (the letter I posted yesterday at10:26 PM).   I'd be interested in your response to my initial “stab” at a description, since I think it's important for us to be really clear here.  We may be using words differently.

In some parts of your last post, it seems to me that the capacities and perspectives you are calling transrational are actually still within the rational sphere.  At least, it is not clear to me where the “trans” comes in.

Also, just personally or anecdotally, I'd love to hear if you've had any experience with transrational states of consciousness or experiences, and if you can compare or contrast that with any prerational spiritual experiences.  I'm also curious if you believe that any so-called paranormal events are actually possible – energetic healing, telepathy, precognition, distance viewing, astral travel, etc. – or if you think all such phenomena are hallucinations or faulty interpretations of mundane, unexceptional events.

Best wishes,

Balder

P.S.  One thing that concerns me about the view that you are expressing is that you appear to be conflating a particular worldview with a cognitive capacity.  I am not sure this is warranted, or rational.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

cant respond too much right now bader - but will asap - please do go on about the distinction you feel i am missing about worldviews and cognition. sounds interesting……seems like you are joining te chorus that wants to point out some incongruity i what i am calling rational - do tell, do tell…. :O)

i will go into more detail later, but yes - i have much experience of both pre and transrational states. as i have mentioned i was on a serious psychedelic path for some years and ave been a yogi, bodyworker, holotropic breathing faciliator for over a decade. so much experience in altered and heightened states of consciousness, work with energy in sometimes quite dramatic ways every day (but don’t have the magical orientation around it that most of my colleagues do) and have had a on again off again meditation practice since i was a teenager. also very into ecstatic dance for aout 10 years…..

are we an closer to some good consensus on the central differences between pre nd trans and the role of rationalty in spirituality?

i will check back in tomorrow late afternoon and give this thread it’s due.

happy weekend everyone.

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

Julian,

I’m not making any claims to a person’s center of consciousness, but I strongly intuit rational regression in every freakin’ post you make.  You’re starting to hide it again to the naked eye, but it makes it more apparent, to me at least, at your failure to acknowledge it openly, authentically!

You think the way I experience you doesn’t teach me anything?  What am I missing?

Your display of your history in spiritual study and development is no different than someone saying they’re more aware because of their age… while being serious.

My experience has told me if five-ten people are telling me the same thing, then chances are I must be missing something.

I too have regression in streams of awareness… what’s the big deal?

I know your unconscious game; I was raised around it.

You came here to get your shit called, so fucking submit! … slippery bastard. :)

Seth

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Re: Prerational and Transrational Spirituality: The Difference Is

“my position is very simple so far.

all mythologies, metaphysics, magical claims (which we shall define here as anything outside the laws of physics), archetypal beings or symbolic constructs are:

a) taken literally at the prerational level as historic, present or yet to come, facts.
b) shot to pieces as completely non-existent at the rational level (no proof exists for ANY of them)
c) analysed and understood at the transrational level for their metaphoric value and as a beautiful (if partial and often flawed) sign of the extraordinary intuitive symbol generating power of the psyche in it's attempt to interact with the great unknowns of our existence.”

Julian, I am suddenly thinking of an anecdote of one of the well known psychoanalysts, maybe Jung….I can't remember where I read this…but it is about a 'golden scarab'….the analyst had a patient in his office talking about a dream she had had with a golden scarab and she was puzzled by the dream, and I imagine they were looking at the deeper 'symbolic', 'archetypical' aspects of the golden scarab, when there was a thrumming on the window pane of the room they were in.  Mr. Famous Psychoanalyst went to the window, and there was a golden scarab(whatever the heck a scarab is!) bouncing at the window.
“Literally”……Not rationally, and not really significant to anyone outside that room….and who would care…. But indeed, 'it is the word made flesh'….literally….. 

When I was an adolescent, i had a poster on my wall with words from Hermanne Hesse, something like:
“You probably don't appreciate the way a letter wags like the tail of a fish, a bird blows up its feathers and flying away…..but I tell you, with these words god wrote the world.”

One of the elements that has astounded me, beyond anything that I can explain, is that in my own forrays into the mystical/psychotic realm (the matter-anti-matter thingamagiggy) is the “literal” obviousness of this world…..it is a 'code' waiting to be broken, the open secret, hilarious in its obviousness–like seeing the wolves hidden in a picture of landscape drawing all staring out at me/you……or one of those three dimensional pictures that have become popular lately. 

I know that this 'way of seeing' is vulnerable to its own delusions, psychotic and otherwise.  The way these delusions arise and play out, are related I suspect to the 'stage of development of an individual/society's evolution of